Recently became a single father so after my kid goes to sleep i have some spare time = mazebert time ;) i did a few 200 wave games to finish some quests and i can see that quite a few changes have been made, shadow has been balanced and other great stuff has been added, anyway i just wanted to brag a bit so if you(Andy) want to move this topic, erase or change feel free to do so :))) This was my first 500 wave since i came back and i gained about 1,5 wizard levels worth of experience from it went from 84 to 86, and i think its my personal best, dont have any new items since i stopped playing so my only legendaries are the soul reaper and blood demon, but they still does the trick! I used Lord Roderic anyway i felt that holgar was useful in the beginning as a mead farm but he could not even compete with my jillys after a while even though i shared all potions between him an shadow with the yin&yang, so what monster should i have replaced him with? probably a darkness tower to gain the benefits from abyss king? another jilly? haha well i would appreciate some tips so i can beat you guys in the bonus time ladder :D http://imgur.com/a/BAUBD

Welcome back, sir :-) And congratz to becoming a dad!

Aye, congrats! The game is soooo much better these days. =)

Thanks both Andy and Romeo =) yes mazebert has improved alot, though.. it has always been great ;) still curious, what tower to replace holgar with? maybe a second shadow for maximum effect? :D hehe

I dont know of ishould congratulate. Getting to be a single father meant that you probably were a father before but now your wife/gf left? Well anyway good luck with your child. I am a father myself now for a year and man it can stress you out. Anyway I prefer my abyss with hades on holgars place and shadow on abyss place with reaver. But I play shadow late about when bonus round starts. So I can have holgar get mead. But holgar is not as good as before since Andy fixed him. This combo scales madly. throw in a kunx at the right place and go afk for a few hours works like a charm for me And Holger gets replaced with some dark tower for abyss bonus

If you don't want to use Darkness as a deck, Muli the Evil Twin is the strongest option thus far. If Darkness is brought in, Shadow, Ripper, Scarecrow and The Dark Forge are all viable options. As it stands, Darkness is still the strongest deck by a country mile, but there's a new deck somewhere on the horizon, and Nature and Metro have both been given pretty good offerings lately, so things are moving in the right direction.

@kami thanks, yes she left me and my 2 yo son, and yes it stress me out too to have all that responsibility on me instead of it being divided by 2 parents, but it is great and rewarding :D my son has great leveling skills thanks to the ganesha next to him, his teddybear cuddling skills and his adaptation is beyond the 10k cap (i suspect that he has the seelenreisser IRL) ;) Ok yes hades on abyss was a new idea for me and it greatly improved his minion horde collecting skills, aswell as a lot of lucky pants(lord roderics drawback hurts ;), but i will try your option and put him on holgars spot. but i like to have shadow in early and with only speed so he just adapt but won't dmg to kill, while about wave 40 to 400 i use holgar as main hitter to maximize his mead farming, i only use water of life in the start and wait with all other potions until i get the yin/yang, and why i also put my main shadow on the mid island is because of mr. iron as buff, all those multicrits you can gain now is requiring quite alot of crit% to be sure to use the maximum amout of multicrits/hit @romeo thanks, i just don't like Muli because of the need of 1-2 hulis to feed him bananas(=a waste of 3 spots) but i like him because i love the towers that can improve themselves even efter all items and potions are used, that is why holgar used to be my favorite(still strong but only midgame) ripper seems nice but lacks that something extra(i really like Balu the bear except i don't want him near my main hitter and his hugs are to slow(maybe adapt his hugs with speed the same as mr. iron's ability is speeded up?) ;) dark forge and scarescrow are strong but as with holgar at some point in the game even their best will just be kindergarden fights compared to shadows adapt, and yes my man i am looking forward to the new deck! i have missed out alot on the forum but i really hope it will be an angelic deck!(dreaming of an anti-shadow type of tower, something like: Archangel Michael with a modified adapt(maybe an adaptation with true damage(with a cap) instead of armor types like shadow with ber,vex,fal?) i dunno but it will be sooo cool to test the new deck out when it comes! ok so based on your advices i will put abyss on spot #2 instead of #3, my secondary tower will be a holgar until useless then replaced by another shadow! thank you guys, this made me see things clearer and hopefully help me above #29 on the bonus ladder ;) (still disappointed with myself as i play easy instead of hard, but i haven't found a viable strategy yet) goin to use reginn alot to give me those legendaries ;)

Muli is superior to Balu, in my experience. Balu might be able to swipe a whole wave of weak minions, but he's far too weak to handle Boss waves later on. His ability has excessively weak scaling in my books (Needs a speed boost) whereas Muli can get stupid amounts of bonus with his speed cranked up as high as it'll go. Throw in the added range and banana-slip effect, and he can basically stop Boss waves dead, while still being lethal enough to obliterate multiple minions. The Dark Forge remains fairly useful late-game due to the adjustment to item-creation (Now continues in to Bonus waves) and his ludicrously high base damage makes him a good "finisher" for the odd creep that sneaks through. Scarecrow has been reined in somewhat, but was extremely consistent before the adjustment. Load him up, and he could handle Boss and multiple opponents with ease. As he is now, I still find him a great "temporary carry". While I wait for Ripper, I use Scarecrow to rack up the kills. Lategame, he maintains some utility with the Frozen set due to his nature. And last, my favourite, The Ripper: He'll either become exceedingly good, or lose you the game. There's no middle ground with him. Get his Critical Chance up high early on, and he'll absolutely ruin everything while you work on raising his Speed and Multicrits. But just due to his cost, range and speed, he can also easily lose you the game when first built if the waves don't go your way, or if his Critical Chance is too low. With the limitation of Shadow in place, Ripper actually becomes the strongest tower in to the bonus round. As for your placement, that's where I put him too, it's great for the Abyss King. And I wouldn't worry about hard, no one seems to play it for some reason. And if you're doing leaderboard runs, there's literally no point in playing anything except easy.

I cant See ripper near shadow on any case his bonus is too little to matter. Later on he should more or less 1 hit kill and he stacks additively with abyss while shadow gives you a nice 100x multiplier on DMG. Building critdmg up is just so insignificant when abyss gives you 30k bonus for ripper to be as good as shadow he would need 6million Stacks Meaning he needs 200 procs for every proc on abys to compete woth shadow

You're overlooking too many variables. Shadow starts at 5-15 damage (Average 10), Ripper starts at 41-51 (Average 46), and the gap gets larger in Ripper's favour as they level. So right out of the gates, Shadow needs just shy of five stacks to get up to Ripper's level (To start). After that, Multicrits make a huge amount of difference to Ripper, easily capable of multiplying Ripper's effect by ten or more. While Shadow might be more powerful mid-game (Until he hits his maximum) Ripper will easily out-damage him given time.

You overlook the attack speed . DPS of both is nearly the same and multictit has the same effectiveness for both it just multiplies the DMG when it procs and with 1k crit chance it always procs full. So not much difference there the only thing is that speed caps at 2.8k for shadow but to double the DPS there you need at least another 2.8k speed. Which is quite much. Plus the demon blade triples the DMG of shadow but has not that much effect on ripper. If you like I can make a calculation to clear things up a bit. What are the items on your ripper? And just BTW how far do you get in bonus round?

Attack speed is irrelevant late game, as they both cannot attack faster than the base minimum (Which is around 0.05 seconds, if memory serves). I fully admit, the low attack speed is where Ripper can cause absolute failure early on. Don't forget, Multicrit is a multiplier to the critical damage, not the base damage. The higher the critical bonus, the greater the effect Multicrit has. If one tower had 200 base damage, with a 10% bonus and +2 multicrit, it would end up with 240 damage in the end. A 120 base damage tower can do that with 100% critical bonus and the same +2 multicrit. If the multicrit goes up one more for the both of them, the first tower would only go to 260 damage, whereas the second would shoot up to 360 damage. (https://mazebert.com/2014/02/23/multicrit/) I also agree the Demon Blade would have significantly more of an effect on Shadow than it would on Ripper. Alas, I've never had the Blood Demon in either of my saves, so I use what is available. For your point, Seelenreiser would also be more beneficial to Shadow as compared to Ripper, as the loss of multicrit is a huge detriment to the latter. My best run with what I've got was just a hair north of 13,000 seconds (Which was done with an extremely lucky Ripper run, in my case). While I've never failed to get to the bonus round with Shadow, I simply cannot keep him going after about 8,000 seconds. Ripper fails about 50% of the time to even make the bonus round, but when it does, it will usually get to 10,000 with average luck.

Shadow 70k seconds. Here is why. For every creep that dies I get 0.8 stacks on abyss (80% Proc chance) Let's say attack speed is equal which I don't think is doable with ripper but whatever. You would need about 8400%speed for that. Fully charged shadow gives 100 (actually 101) times the DMG. DMG formula is I think Basedmg * dmg% * critdmg% * multicrit * armormod We can ignore armormod as it is equal. So shadow has: 110-330base DMG avg 220 + ~460 from demon = 680 base for shadow times 100 for ability = 68000 base dmg for the formula. Ripper: 1029-1257 that's 1143 avg. But he has 1 more slot. Still shadow has 60 times more base. I would think you have reaver on your main because else you would lose quite fast in bonus. But reaver which would reduce the amount of proc per killed creep. So if you would get 160 procs per kill you would get the same bonus as abyss which would double your crit DMG and your dmg% that means quadrupled DMG output. Which still is a fifteenth of shadow DMG. And getting so many process is impossible I guess.... And the bonus of seelenreisserseelenreisser makes it scale worse. Multicrit: potion + spectre set - seelenr + manitu is 10 multicrit for shadow. Ripper could have blade of darkness for 30% more DMG or hydra for 40%. From 3 more multicrit. For easy calculation we can say 50% so in the very best case ripper is a tenth as strong as shadow and has less range. The crit and DMG potions don't matter much later on when abyss gives you more than 30k stats. If I made any error plz tell me and show me prove for it plz. If you think you have better item combinations tell me I wrote this on my phone so I hope is understandable.

That's well and good for you. I couldn't get either Blood Demon or Seilenreiser to drop in my second save, along with many other towers, so a 70,000 second run is never going to happen, in any instance, for my deck. In the very best case, a Ripper will massively outdamage Shadow by the end for the simple fact Shadow is limited in its procs, Ripper is not. Range and consistancy are definitely the perview of Shadow, and always will be, I do not discount that fact. My advice to him is coming from the perspective of someone whose deck isn't loaded up to the gills. In which case, going way back to my original post, yes, Ripper is more than competitive with Shadow if he wants to run it.

Awww common... Have you even read what I wrote? Rippers bonus is insignificant as soon as you have a well placed abyss. 160 crits per kill would mean you need 5 seconds per monster. Rippers process adds to abyss but so much less that it doesn't matter at all. While shadow gives a flat 100 multiplier. Even without those items he is far stronger

Yes, I read what you said, and as I pointed out prior to that, Ripper's bonus is far from insignificant. You seem to be forgetting that Abyss helps out Ripper just as much (Technically more) than Shadow, so that's a wash. Ripper still has superior base damage, and no limit to proc, and prospers more from Multicrit, which makes him a godsend when you have a limited deck. Having remembered how amazing Shadow was before, I used him almost as often as I used Ripper, and I can promise you: If you don't have a stupid amount of skills, or specialty items, Ripper will provide a longer bonus round, provided you don't die from the initial purchase. It's tough to get Shadow to 50B damage with a low-end deck. You won't see Ripper's damage below 300B damage with the same deck though. Of course, you sacrifice stability and range to do that, so it's balanced.

K believe what you want the numbers show that rippers bonus is not worth mentioning when abyss is getting good procs. 1 abyss proc is worth 200 ripper procs so the gain of it is non existent. Higher base DMG is only worth it if you have a good attack speed aswell and even than ,if you crunch the numbers shadow out classes him by factors larger than 10. That's just the math behind it: Abyss grows much faster than ripper so ripper doesn't matter as they improve the same stats. That means, no matter how many procs ripper gets his bonus will be much lower than the bonus of abyss. As I said believe it or not. Numbers don't lie and I said everything that is to say about that. If you have questions feel free to ask, but I stop arguing now