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Caps, time and versatility (but mostly caps)

I know this wont sit well with some people, but I think the game as it is now, is too focused on maxing a single carry and thats more or less it if you want to compete in the bonus rounds (both on 200 and 500). There is no other viable strategy than a shadow as main carry, the ripper could have been an alternative but its not, not by far to be honest. Everything else (but Holger) is just something you use for fun once in a while. Scaling is king, and nothing scales like a Shadow with Seelenreiser, Reaver and the new Abyss King at the moment. On 1.1.3, my main shadow carry (in bonus rounds) gains insane amounts of damage on each creep. By balancing out damage to get as many hits as possible before a creep dies, and placing my Abyss King and Shadow strategically (90%+ creeps die in range of Abyss King), I can get something like: Per 3 creep: + 3% damage from Seelenreiser + 2% damage from Abyss King + 2% crit damage from Abyss King + 0.2% crit chance from Abyss King (this one is usually quite useless way before bonus rounds, but nonetheless) + X% damage from Shadow adapts (anything from 1-100 with 2000ish speed and 80%+ Luck, using the reaver) In total its increasing a minimum of 10% calculated damage per 3 creeps (taking crit damage and multicrits into account), and this basically means that my main carry shadow is almost self sustaining to keep up with creep scaling (with high enough speed and damage control it should be possible to go on for a long long time). There are only a few fixes as I can see, either nerf shadow/darkness quite hard, buff all the other towers quite hard or start capping stuff. I would like to suggest getting more caps into the game, firstly to get more versatile gameplay, and secondly to maybe get the insane bonus times down a bit. Playing the same bonus round where you can do 1-2 changes every 30 minutes, for a whole weekend is not my idea of fun (and the scepter is broken at these cooldowns, I have no doubt about that anymore). I like games that requires time, planning and effort, but bonus rounds is mostly just waiting and monitoring once you are done with the first 3000 seconds. My suggestions would be something like this:
  • Cap shadow adepts on 10000% for each armortype (might be lower, but a good place to start I think)
  • Cap cooldown (speed) at 0.1s (i think this is the best spot atm)
  • Mark caps in red/orange writing on the tower card in-game when you reach them. It should not really be necessary to go online, search thru a ton of old and outdated posts about every tower and stats to try and find out what is currently in the game. If Luck was marked as 80% in red/orange and didnt go any further up when I put another Luck item in it, I would understand that it was maxed right there and then.
There need to be a few "infinity values" in the game as well, Damage add % and Crit damage % are the two values I dont think should have a cap ever. Crit chance might aswell be capped somewhere along 500ish as it isnt really usefull anymore once you pass 3-400%, and you will in every game, but its no big deal either way. I would love to see a cap on item chance/quality as infinete potions after 1000% will get you nowhere and the only way to understand why is going online and find the curve posted in the blog. This became a much long post than I was planning on, but Im getting a bit frustrated that Im now passing 10000 seconds on 200 wave games as well (ive given up 500 games as they take way too long). Meaning I cant spend a 3-5 hours to try something out anymore, I need to spend a day....atleast...its just too long. I started another thread about gamespeed, but it drowned in scepter and quest discussions. I would love to see a 20% increase in gamespeed, but I understand that might be messing up alot of stuff in the code ;) Anyways, these are my thoughts about changes that could make the game more interesting and a bit less time consuming. Once a tower is capped, you will need to start another to keep up with creep scaling, and not just keep dumping everything into the same tower from wave 100 to game over. I got tons more suggestions, but this post is allready long enough and they would be minor compared to these above anyways. This might seem like negative post, but just remember that even if you dont do any of these changes, Mazebert will still be the most interesting TD game on the market today :)

I don't think Darkness needs even more nerfs. I've never been a fan of nerfing things until everything feels the same. I like Starcraft: Brood War's style of balance - if everything is over-powered, nothing is. As it stands, Darkness is MASSIVELY outclassed by Nature for 200 round games (A Balu or Alpha Wolf going in to Bonus rounds will currently embarass Shadow, Ripper or Forge Lord carries). Metro needs a huge buff at the moment, having only Muli to carry them. But I strongly, strongly oppose any more nerfs in the game for quite some time. Let's get everything going and useful first, then we can worry about overall balance to adjust things later. As it stands, having two people in my house trying to get in to the game, it's currently bordering on unplayable on Easy, unless they're doing Wolf Pack. I can complete Easy, but even at level 69 I'm currently finding Medium and Hard too difficult to complete. As for the 10,000 seconds off of 200 rounds, either you're talking about an extremely lucky one-time thing, or you're playing on Easy, in which case there's always Hard more for you.

Hehe its not extreme luck, I assure you. With the current game setup, 10k is easypeasy using shadow. When it comes to difficulty setting, I kind of agree, but since it doesnt really matter anything in the ladder, "everyone" plays the Bonus ladder on Easy. I mostly play for the ladder, I like competition once Ive gotten accustomed to a game. I havent reallu suggested nerfs tho, just caps, which wont even matter in 200 wave games before you hit about 3-5000 bonus seconds. Nature doesnt stand a chance against shadow/darkness setup for 200 bonus rounds, but I still agree that wolfpack is the easiest and fastest way to complete a 200 game without bonus rounds :)

I don't think cap Darkness is a good idea, whatever you design the whole game, there always will be a best tower, and player will use that tower a lot. And Darkness need lots of time to become strong, I have try many times, and still can't use hero Kovthe in hard mode for more xp. I hope Abyss King can buff all towers, so there will be more choice. I spend more then 1000 relics and have none of the two secret blade, just wonder how many relics should be expected.

Wow thats bad luck mate. Seelenreiser is unfortunatly essential to the game imo, it is still the biggest damage collector in the game, even tho Abyss King is now breathing down its neck. Blade of Darkness is the biggest MC multiplier and also vital in bonus rounds. I hope you get them soon! I agree that there will always be a cookie cutter setup in any game, I just feel its so way beyond anything else in the game atm. I would love to play with other carries and figure out strategies for them, but everything Ive tried (which is pretty much everything) falls short of the shadow and like I said above, I like competition and ladders once Ive completed every other aspect of the game. I might take up Medium and Hard mode like Romeo suggested for a while, atleast they will be alot faster...which is basically what this thread is about :)

I just realised that Ive been saying 10k seconds is easy on 200 without there beeing any proof of me ever reaching it on the ladders. The reason for this is simply that my game is still running (just passed 30k seconds). Im considering just ending it as Im extremly bored, and have been for the last 8 or so hours waiting for it to complete. Ive hardly even touched it after 3k and Ive had to charge my phone 5 times today so far. Its just running alone by itself in the corner with the charger plugged in now, while I do something else. Its not really playing is it...and its kind of the whole point Im trying to make here.

Yesterday evening, after use Painkiller I plug in the charger and let the game run, then go to sleep, this morning I found survive 40K+ second and level up. It's not bad, right?

Its not bad, but its still not really playing? Its just...waiting :)

Btw, kudos for doing 40k without Seelenreiser and Demon Blade, thats quite something :)

Thanks, new version, new test. Abyss King is so nice.

Waiting is necessary, many towers need time to become strong.

Okay, so instead of of gettin everything down to a decent level, you plan to raise everything, so you can get to 10k+ times with about every setup... That is... well meh? Öö Allright just a bit of math: Scarface deals with his ability about 8-10 times damage/shot Solara deals roughly 13 times Ripper can infi stack and beat both easy enough. Now there comes the shadow! Ta-Da! easy pease 50+ times his basedamage while having more damage then Scarface or Solara (before the update) or around the same values. And the stacking of shadow isnt what makes him that strong. The biggest problem is, that shadow is the ONLY one with an additional damage factor. basedamage*critdamge*multicrit (not including critchance and speed, cos they dont matter in the long run and knusper eats away the armor) and for shadow there needs to be added: *stacks/100. Each and every other tower does not have such an multiplyer. The problem is and always will be the infinitive stacking abilitys. They just break the game. Give shadow a cap like Scarface or solara got in the end of the day and no one will bother to use them anymore, because there are easier ways. I really hate whap happens with all that infinity stacks and now look at darkness overall. -a tower which NEGATES the armor of enemys fully! -a tower with infinite stacking crit damage -a tower with infitinite damage increase -a tower which infinite increase of damage/crit/critchance for all other darkness tower. You say they dont need a cap? IF not, then EVERY tower needs a ability like that or an base damage increase/wave to make it at least competetive. Like in diablo 3 currently, you can go T1-3 easy enough with whatever legendarys you find. But as soon as you got a sec you can instantly skip to T7+ cos suddenly you get 5-13 times the damage. Thats not the kind of balance i want to see in this game in the long run. Buffing everything, then having to increase the speed so you dont have to spend 2 weeks to a single round, then buffing again, speed increase and you get the loop. The game should be balanced that medium players end on maybe 2-3k sec and only the best of best on 5-10k

Im guessing that reply was not for me? As my post says that I want to have caps on the shadow and on tower speed, for the same reasons, it takes too long to finnish a game now and there really isnt anything that can compete with the shadow as is. Which makes all my games look pretty much the same with minor adjustments. A great bonus run on 200 waves shouldnt really take longer than an hour or so (3-4000s). Its better if we can compete on beating eachother with seconds, rather than double digit hours as it is now.

I think the right way is to buff weak towers like what Andy have done on scarecrow.

I believe his reply was to me. And I'm not saying the game needs to be a cakewalk on every difficulty. But as it stands, there's only a few Towers anyone would call "good carries" as the game stands. Shadow, Ripper, Wolf, Muli. There's also some good supports out there, but as it stands, a large chunk of towers aren't used, not because they aren't as good as the best, but because they aren't good enough to use, period. I don't mind the top guys grabbing the best strategy that's 0.0005% better than any other strategy. That's a level of balance that's utterly irrelevant to 99% of players. What does matter is knowing that I can't even consider using Twisted Wizard, Small Spider, Hitman, Pocket Thief, Huli, Bear Hunter, Scarface, Solara, Irish Pub, Electric Chair and many more because not only are they not as good as the go-to towers, they aren't even strong enough to beat a long game. Buff the hell out of those towers. If we get to a point where we find "Yes, all these Towers will let you win, and these three actually make the game pointlessly easy", then we can start reining those ones back in.

First off, its possbible to beat the game with each and every tower. If you really intend to, you can have 2 beavers carry you thorugh easy 500 waves. The point is you said "darkness does not need any more nerfs" The point is people start complaining, that it takes DAYS to finish a good match. Want to have an increased gamespeed. Taht is only neccesary because of the OP darkness towers right now. A Scarface can carry you easy enough through the first 5k seconds, even Solara can now with Seelenreißer. There has to be adjustments to shadow and probably ripper (did not test him too much). You cant just say "lets plainly buff EVERYTHING, because i dont want to lose my OP tower status on shadow" and that's what it's coming down to right now. But about a few more towers: Spider in combo with Gib is a hell of slowing effect. Scarface deals decent damage to absolutely everything, in combination with a good single target in the back (Laser) it rocks. If you really about Micr-Managing you can add a AA-Ironman in the middle (to save gold) Twisted Wizard is a risky tower, i grant you. but on my solara runs i nearly always spam them (Metro+Darkness) together with 2 ice and withered set items on them and one buff iron man to get the speed. In the end the point is: Darkness is not balanced right now to the other 2 races. Metro and Nature are more or less as strong as the other. So Darkness needs a revamp in the long run, or just add infinitif stacking abilitys to every tower and voila it's "balanced"...

To begin with, I'm not going to ask for proof that you can have two Beavers carry you through 500 waves. That's utter nonsense and you know it. "First off, its possbible to beat the game with each and every tower. If you really intend to, you can have 2 beavers carry you thorugh easy 500 waves." See above. "The point is you said “darkness does not need any more nerfs.”" As the game currently is? No. Darkness is compotent. Not as consistent as Nature right now, but at least has a chance at success. "The point is people start complaining, that it takes DAYS to finish a good match. Want to have an increased gamespeed.". Taht is only neccesary because of the OP darkness towers right now." I can appreciate that, but I would also argue those same people are going to be up in arms if suddenly everyone is losing at the same spot. "A Scarface can carry you easy enough through the first 5k seconds, even Solara can now with Seelenreißer." And that's fine and dandy, you've made it abundantly clear on the forums that you're so very l33t at the game. Not everyone is. As I said, I tried and failed to get multiple people in to the game, but they gave up when the realized even Easy is going to be nothing but failures for the most part. There's Medium and Hard for people like you, and if you still find it too Easy, ask Andy for another difficulty further. I'm great at racing games, but I don't think Easy should be weeding out 80% of the playerbase, I just turn it up to Hard. "There has to be adjustments to shadow and probably ripper (did not test him too much)." We've already had adjustments to the former, and the latter is extremely inconsistent. As it stood in 1.13 (Last update I've played through) Shadow was the only half-way decent tower Darkness had to start with. "You cant just say “lets plainly buff EVERYTHING, because i dont want to lose my OP tower status on shadow” and that’s what it’s coming down to right now." Again, this is coming from someone who doesn't even use Shadow, I don't care for him. I want OPTIONS, in the game. If we buff the hell out of things to the point where there's actually a point in trying other towers, and after all that we still find "Yes, the average player can now beat the game with a deck of their choosing, but Shadow is still walking all over everything else" then we can nerf it. "But about a few more towers: Spider in combo with Gib is a hell of slowing effect." It can be decent, but Spider falls out of favour to Miss Jilly. Spider with Reaver'd Gib can only affect a single target at a time in the Spider's case, meaning he's typically only useful against Boss/Challenge waves. With a 18% chance to slow, I'd rather just use a luck-boosted Jilly, which can find the same odds to out and out stun, to say nothing of her ability to instakill other waves as well. "Scarface deals decent damage to absolutely everything, in combination with a good single target in the back (Laser) it rocks. If you really about Micr-Managing you can add a AA-Ironman in the middle (to save gold)" He used to be usuable, but he's not talented enough to carry any more (I've tried, a lot). Air waves walk right past him, and a few bad-luck shots can let fast waves through no problem. His idea is awesome, and perhaps if he were slightly better, I could justify using him again, but not at the moment. Again, maybe you're amazing at the game, and good for you, but I've played tons of Tower Defense games, and as an average player, he isn't usable to go a long-match with. "Twisted Wizard is a risky tower, i grant you. but on my solara runs i nearly always spam them (Metro+Darkness) together with 2 ice and withered set items on them and one buff iron man to get the speed." It's not even that they're risky - the whole Darkness set is based on risk - it's that they're massively outclassed to the point where the average player can't get them to work. Maybe you got them to, and that's great for you. For me, it's a tower that get's looked at and dismissed (See: Any of the guides on this site). "In the end the point is: Darkness is not balanced right now to the other 2 races. Metro and Nature are more or less as strong as the other. So Darkness needs a revamp in the long run, or just add infinitif stacking abilitys to every tower and voila it’s “balanced”…" Darkness is long-term powerful - I agree. But to those who say let's rein it on back, it's just going to make Wolf pack obscene again, until we nerf that, which will bring about something else being overpowered, ad infinium. So again, I ask: Why not give players on Easy more options for getting in to the damn game (And growing our community), and for those super-competitive folks, why not give a ladder to each difficulty, so they can duke it out for those extra five seconds on Hard mode?

Oh, it is possible to beat it with 2 Beavers as Carry towers XD If a picture is prove enough i will do it in reasonable time [wont attempt to go for survival time though ^^]. If you need a video in fear or switching to beaver just to make a picture... not on a 500 waves match :-P Darkness is not competent. Shadow is broken. Especially in Kombo with Abyss and Seelenreißer. And sorry to tell you this: It's a simple fact. Ask the people who do the big survival times. It's the only possible way, because the infinitive stacking abilitys. And no matter what you do with other towers, they cant get balanced with similiar stacking abilitys. If the shadow gets nerved (to a decent level compared to all the other carry towers) there will be competition with decent times (5k, maybe 10k). Right now shadow is the only tower used in the high times. And it will be stay like that. “A Scarface can carry you easy enough through the first 5k seconds, even Solara can now with Seelenreißer.” And that’s fine and dandy, you’ve made it abundantly clear on the forums that you’re so very l33t at the game. Not everyone is. As I said, I tried and failed to get multiple people in to the game, but they gave up when the realized even Easy is going to be nothing but failures for the most part. There’s Medium and Hard for people like you, and if you still find it too Easy, ask Andy for another difficulty further. I’m great at racing games, but I don’t think Easy should be weeding out 80% of the playerbase, I just turn it up to Hard. Well, im not a pro, im not in the top 10 or anything. But i spend considerable time on the forums, discussing, informing and just reading here, to get the basics, the mechanics and stuff down. If there are questions i try to answere them. Thats wrong? I'm still an avarage player and everyone can see the "symbiotic" (faile to find the right word here) between towers and how to use it. But yes, it DOES take a dozen games and a few hours spend on the game. Reading the forums and asking questions here makes it much easier. Not my fault that your buddys dont even really try to learn somethin and are used to games that just throw the win to you. Yeah because of the risk they do get dismissed. They killed me a few times too. (the Wizards) There is no real way to get them working safely. But if you have like 5-6 they got a pretty high chance that the enemys gets warped back, and if you add the withered set it improves even more. But still, they might port enemys right into the castle, cant help it. But they are fun. Everybody who reads the card text it should be obvious what combos are good. Shadow is NOT a tower to be used by new players. Shadow does not a decent knowledge of the game. Wolves and now the Scarecrow, Scarface and Dande, Electric chair etc... with easy effects are newcomer towers. About wolves beeing OP. They are not in long term. There are still plenty of towers which are better then wolves, even early/mid. (Scarecrow as a big example here.) BUT in my opinion wolves are the best for farming the Quests ;) high level output, rather fail safe and in combo with metro you can get the 1M gold in a 200 waves match... Why are you so insisting that the only choice for long survival time shouldnt be capped/nerfed? Everything else is more or less in the same region for casual players about bonsu times etc. The only tower that really breaks out is shadow, it's way easier to fix that one tower for now, then 25 others. And that would even reduce the time spend game (Well, the ones complaining are the guys with this ridiculus times ^^). Nerving the shadow would bring him to a level where there will be competition for the high times, without beeing forced to go for the shadow or use bugs... I could say more about your friends here but that is first, besides the point we argue about and secondary you might get offended when i state my opinion clearly here.

"Oh, it is possible to beat it with 2 Beavers as Carry towers XD If a picture is prove enough i will do it in reasonable time [wont attempt to go for survival time though ^^]. If you need a video in fear or switching to beaver just to make a picture… not on a 500 waves match." Unfortunately for proof, a picture doesn't do much to show context. If you could show the strategy behind it to be replicated, I'd believe it. "Darkness is not competent. Shadow is broken. Especially in Kombo with Abyss and Seelenreißer. And sorry to tell you this: It’s a simple fact. Ask the people who do the big survival times. It’s the only possible way, because the infinitive stacking abilitys. And no matter what you do with other towers, they cant get balanced with similiar stacking abilitys. If the shadow gets nerved (to a decent level compared to all the other carry towers) there will be competition with decent times (5k, maybe 10k). Right now shadow is the only tower used in the high times. And it will be stay like that." This is not the first game to have that issue, as I pointed out every iteration of Starcraft has had balance issues. The difference between the two is the original (And Brood War) buffed up the stuff that was weak compared to the over-powered stuff. As a result, instead of people saying "Aw, they ruined X" they were instead trying new units, new techniques. Sure, the crazy-competitive still had their concerns about unit y being better than unit x by three percent, but it still worked. For the second game, they took the nerf approach. And they've been nerfing for years now, because every time they take down the top dog, people move on to another unit and abuse the second best until it gets nerfed, and so on. The competition it breeds is temporary for the competitive players, who will instantly seek out the next over-powered choice, and aggrevating for the less competitive players, who constantly find themselves getting the rug-pulled out from under them. If your concern is the ladder system, again, put on seperate ladders for Easy, Medium and Hard. That way Andy can look at fine-tuning balance for the hardcore guys without screwing the rest of the playerbase, as in the 1.1 update. "Well, im not a pro, im not in the top 10 or anything. But i spend considerable time on the forums, discussing, informing and just reading here, to get the basics, the mechanics and stuff down. If there are questions i try to answere them. Thats wrong? I’m still an avarage player and everyone can see the “symbiotic” (faile to find the right word here) between towers and how to use it. But yes, it DOES take a dozen games and a few hours spend on the game. Reading the forums and asking questions here makes it much easier. Not my fault that your buddys dont even really try to learn somethin and are used to games that just throw the win to you." Alright, I'll hit all these in order: Yes, same as literally every player here. Experimentation is why most people play this particular genre. We all answer the questions, but you tend to be very abraisive about it, as though there's your opinion, and the wrong opinion. Time isn't even the issue, one of the players I was trying to get in to this is the guy I always play RTS and 4X games with, the two most complex genres around. But while it's fun to try different things in those, I'm basically sitting here telling him "Oh you can't use that, it's awful. Oh, same with that. Oh, don't use that either." It's different to have a tower that isn't the absolute greatest, but usable (Miss Jilly) and one that's utterly worthless to even attempt using (Electric Chair). As the game stands, even on Easy (Which should be achievable for someone who doesn't even play Tower Defense all that much), challenging on Medium and difficult on Hard. As it is right now, the game is difficult on Easy, unless you use a narrow band of towers, and basically impossible on the other two difficulties if you don't do a specific thing. Nerfing one of the only towers to make Hard achievable will make Hard utterly pointless. Touching that point again, the whole point of strategy games to me isn't to go on the internet and read what needs to happen to win. It's about playing around and finding things out for yourself. As Mazebert stands, playing around on any difficulty results exclusively in failure unless you use specific strategies. It isn't fun. I don't blame them for giving up, I wouldn't want to bother either. "Yeah because of the risk they do get dismissed. They killed me a few times too. (the Wizards) There is no real way to get them working safely. But if you have like 5-6 they got a pretty high chance that the enemys gets warped back, and if you add the withered set it improves even more. But still, they might port enemys right into the castle, cant help it. But they are fun." And that's all well and good, I actually like the "luck" aspect of Darkness towers, but again, it's basically a worthless tower as it stands. Make it something great! I shouldn't be ignoring half the deck in the game. "Everybody who reads the card text it should be obvious what combos are good. Shadow is NOT a tower to be used by new players. Shadow does not a decent knowledge of the game. Wolves and now the Scarecrow, Scarface and Dande, Electric chair etc… with easy effects are newcomer towers." Yes, and it is. But as the difficulty scales up, 95% of those combos don't keep up, even on Easy. I don't think the solution would be to make sure 100% don't keep up, I would prefer the focus be on making sure any logically thought out combo has potential. "About wolves beeing OP. They are not in long term. There are still plenty of towers which are better then wolves, even early/mid. (Scarecrow as a big example here.)" I don't think the Wolves are overpowered as it stands, I think they're just the next most usable tactic to use. My point is that if you just keep nerfing anything that works better, the second place will always get hit next. "BUT in my opinion wolves are the best for farming the Quests 😉 high level output, rather fail safe and in combo with metro you can get the 1M gold in a 200 waves match…" Yes, they tend to excel in short matches, with a long match, you need to swap them for other towers eventually. Nothing wrong with that. "Why are you so insisting that the only choice for long survival time shouldnt be capped/nerfed? Everything else is more or less in the same region for casual players about bonsu times etc. The only tower that really breaks out is shadow, it’s way easier to fix that one tower for now, then 25 others. And that would even reduce the time spend game (Well, the ones complaining are the guys with this ridiculus times ^^). Nerving the shadow would bring him to a level where there will be competition for the high times, without beeing forced to go for the shadow or use bugs…" Because, once again, nerfing off the top is a never-ending cycle. Fix the other problems, rather than just putting it off every time something emerges. If the crazy competitive players only use him, that will still always happen (See: Literally every competitive RTS ever made), while just ruining things for the players who simply want to have fun. Again, give each difficulty a ladder, and just ignore the Easy ladder completely. Then Hard-mode can be more custom-tailored to the players who want more uniformity amongst all towers. I think where we're butting heads, is you want the focus to be on the top percentage of players. Every single time I've seen that in gaming, it almost always comes at the detriment to the game itself. If the uber-competitive segment is an important one to you, again, focus on some seperation between the two. Because a large chunk of players don't give a damn about it. I could say more about your friends here but that is first, besides the point we argue about and secondary you might get offended when i state my opinion clearly here.

That is...alot...of text. I didnt read it all tbh, this forum seriously need a visual quote feature so everything doesnt get jumbled into another and I have to scroll up and down between posts to find out what is quoted, who said what and what is answered. Anyways, my point with this thread is simply this; a game takes too long once you are getting good at it, and now even 200 wave bonus runs can take up to 10-15 hours from start to finish. I can even get my head around how long it took TheMarine to finish his now new record at 125k seconds (!). Thats 35 hours of bonus rounds alone, add another 5 hours atleast on 1-500 and you are closing in to 2 days...played. Adjusting for sleep, work and eating "normaly" (as normal as gamers does atleast), it would span 4-5 days from start to finnish. For me personally thats way too long, and I wont even try to get up there along with him, allthough some of my gamer genes is screaming for me to try. I dont mind time consuming/effort/hard games, but when 75% of the game is just waiting, its not that interesting.

"That is…alot…of text. I didnt read it all tbh, this forum seriously need a visual quote feature so everything doesnt get jumbled into another and I have to scroll up and down between posts to find out what is quoted, who said what and what is answered." Yes, big time. "Anyways, my point with this thread is simply this; a game takes too long once you are getting good at it, and now even 200 wave bonus runs can take up to 10-15 hours from start to finish. I can even get my head around how long it took TheMarine to finish his now new record at 125k seconds (!). Thats 35 hours of bonus rounds alone, add another 5 hours atleast on 1-500 and you are closing in to 2 days…played. Adjusting for sleep, work and eating “normaly” (as normal as gamers does atleast), it would span 4-5 days from start to finnish. For me personally thats way too long, and I wont even try to get up there along with him, allthough some of my gamer genes is screaming for me to try. I dont mind time consuming/effort/hard games, but when 75% of the game is just waiting, its not that interesting." And I agree with that assessment, but I feel that's more of a fault of the ladder system than anything else. They best-of-the-best players shouldn't have to be playing on Easy to post good times. Move them up to Hard by providing ladders for each difficulty, and that will not only provide some much-needed separation between difficulties, but also reign in the bonus round times significantly. Then if someone does go for Easy and lasts that long, they'll have no one to blame but themselves.

In the end it comes down to nerf the shadow ;) to get rid of that times. Splitting up the ladder is useful for what exactly? That there are 3 ladders with 3 different big numbers on place on, each with 100k+ times, which are only doable with shadow. One of the main complains is, that ladder times are too high, and you fix it by BUFFING everything? Then what? Increase the speed times 5? 10? 20? It will not really change anything. Just because its too long for you or me and many more, doesnt mean that many people TRY to get to that level. Oh and one other thing: Do you really think Scarecrow is fun to play? Are wolves? If i would start new and hit scarecrow on wave 10, and just run through then, i would instantly delete the TD, because its the challange that at least keeps me here. Oh and a last thing for now, since im honestly too lazy to respond to everyting above right now, Electric Chair is quite strong for mid game ;)

Electric Chair is acceptable for mid-game, strong is being generous. And again, that's a tower that will screw over a starting player, because without a ridiculous amount of skills, it's way too weak to carry through to completion. As for the Hard vs Medium vs Easy argument, if you'd go back to my original points, I'd suggestion handling the balance more independantly of eachother. Make Hard, you know, Hard, for the players who play for the sheer competitiveness of it. Make Easy for those looking to start playing. And make Medium for those who have established their playstyle, but still want a challenge. Again, the objective isn't to make Easy so ridiculous that new players don't even bother trying to get better, that's why we have, you know, different difficulties. And that's not to say Hard should be a cakewalk either. Again, Hard should be almost impossible for a new player, and even difficult for the experienced players. But the argument I'm hearing here is as silly as me going in to an Age of Wonders forum and saying "This game on Easy isn't challenging enough" rather than just bumping the difficulty up.