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Balancing 1.0

What’s OP and needs a nerf, what needs to be buffed? Your balancing suggestions for version 1.0!

Acolyte of greed is game breaking in anything over 200 waves. Replacing a ganesha with him 50 times at wave 350 of 500 yielding me about 30 of each potion and 30 of each yellow item and blue item is completely game breaking. Is way way worse than the potion duping ever was. My bonus round time is going to be absolutely ridiculous and anyone else that uses acolyte like i did. Also i was playing a nature/darkness only game so i didnt even have a mr. iron to abuse the hundreds of items i had. Literally rerolled 47 rare steaks, 32 viking helmets, 21 lucky pants, 48 frozen hearts and the list goes on. And this was at lvl 350! I couldve had like 20-30 more acolytes at end of game. lvl 350 my dark forge had 55mil average dmg... completely game breaking. suggestion: make acolyte a legendary or unique tower so it drops once. keep warcry but remove lvl differentiation. make it summon 5 on build, add once every 3 mins spawn a goblin( or something like that) Also game difficulty scaling past lvl 100 is nonexistant. It doesn't matter what build I do or towers or drops I get if I hit lvl 100 on any difficulty its impossible to lose. In fact after round 200 I start spamming next as fast as the cooldown will let me to finish a game of 500 rounds. The game is very very challenging for the first 100 rounds, especially on hard but after that it's just a joke. I don't know how you can fix this. It might just be a scaling issue, or it might be tied to the exponential growth of your carry towers that the difficulty scaling just cant keep up.

Acolyties are way to op! the unique idea with another timer-spawn sounds like a good fix! Shadow need another nerf/balance to allow the other carrys to catch up. Muli needs a buff, like shorter hangover and bigger base-dmg. Novice wizzard would be nice if his abilities would have a slight level-scaling. I think Shadow Mane could get a little buff.

The Acolytes really need to be nerfed! And I agree, Shadow in combination with Abyss King became a very powerful combo. Currently I see the following options for Shadow: - Decrease base damage slightly - Decrease chance to trigger adapt slightly Wouldn't nerf him too much, because the fact that his adapt bonus doesn't count for horsemen/challenges is a bit of a drawback already. Are you sure about Muli? I had some pretty good games carrying with him (Didn't do much bonus survival, so maybe there he is a bad choice because of hangover?). Suggestion: Make hangover scale with IAS, like with Mr. Irons attack ability. What do you have in mind? Novice Wizard will be adjusted in next version, so that he scales slightly with level. Probably gonna be trigger chances like for Miss Jilly. I'm not so sure about Shadow Mane. I started this hero with 40% IAS buff and it was waaaay too OP. The 20% felt a lot better and is still pretty strong in early game (If you have a few stunner/slower/scientists...). Looking forward to your opinions guys :-) @Brandon The +100 difficulty balancing will be pretty tricky. Maybe an improved loot function can help with this. The current linear one isn't quite optimal. At some point you get such a flood of items/potions which has two disadvantages: - Too much micro-management, item drops aren't special anymore - Towers become OP too fast due to potion flood This will be a really tricky task, and will require A LOT of testing, but I think it is worth the effort!

shadow allready has a low base dmg, alike with trigger chance. I would slightly lower his attack speed. Another usefull nerf would be to not trigger adapt on Mreaver hits. The increddible Bonusdmg comes from Mreaver on Mass-Chalenges. Since the start of this game i was a really huge friend of Huli. Nowadays Huli is only usable as a midgame carry. As Muli was integrated he was a really great endgame carry, but now we have better ones. He doesnt scale fast and strong enough and his hangover often lead to leaks. He requires bigger amounts of gold (2 Hulis and 1 Muli+his ability). Scaling Hangover with attack speed is a good idea, maybe give him another slight basedmg boost. I tried several games with the different heroes, Crit comes in handy in midgame-lategame, Itemfind+quality is very strong all the time. The 20% attackspeed just fall back against both others imo. but more as would make it really to strong. maybe give him another little stat like 5% exp-gain? If u change Itemfind, softcaps are allways better then hard caps. Like in early Versions of YouTD, potion drops are way to high in endgame. Especially because u can transform items to potions. if u change Potionsdropps to 1/2 or even 1/3 of the moment u could only win. This way Bonuswave-times will go down and there are Possibilitys to integrate ore armor-manippulating to push them back up. U could think about another increase for baseHP of creeps after wave 100 and maybe some special creep abilitys (only Spawning after wave 100) eg.CC imunity (stund and slow), Regenerating HP or Chalenge/Rider-Armor for normal waves (would nerf shadow even more)

Excellent ideas Vasuhn! Added your input for the upcoming adjustments for Shadow, Muli and Shadow Mane. Totally agree on the hard cap over soft cap. I think this can help with the item flood and make the endgame more challenging and rewarding. Adding more creep abilities is definitely on my list as well! There will be a post soon, to collect ideas for those abilities from all players. Followed by a poll to vote for your favorite ones ;-) Also, great idea to add abilities that have higher chances in later levels, or even a cap.

I'm not quite understanding the hardcap vs. softcap. I do agree with the fact that theres a complete flood of items and potions at late game (which is also why I think acolyte is a broken tower, it only makes this issue worse with flooding more items which lead to broken ladder bonus times). I would say as is the early game is extremely challenging, especially if you play hard, but sometime after round 100 "the flood" breaks the game, so we would really have to be careful how we adjust the coding because it could just make the early game nigh impossible if we just lower drop rates as a flat rate. It's a unique issue and like I was saying not quite sure how to solve. I also think holgar needs a nerf. Mead farming especially in late game where he kills every single unit and has high drop chance+luck is also attributing to making the game too easy. Anytime I would play a long 500 game I use him and farm 300+ meads to break down into other potions.

Another huge one in favor of nerfing the Acolyte of Greed. It is a little broken when 30 of them can get you 60+ of all the potions. One thing that could solve the loot problems would be increasing strictly the transmute from rare items to potions. This could be done in either upping the number items 4->6 may be a fair increase, or another option would be for the transmute to only make a blue Water of Life. This would take the conversion from 4 per rare potion to 12 per rare potion. So you would get 1/3 the potion from transmutes. And then maybe just hit the drop rate of potions from treasure goblins slightly.

@Baka I think this would break early game a bit. In early game the transmute ratio and rewarding feels good as is (at least to me). I think the best shot we can do is to adjust the loot function. Currently the drop chance scales linearly until it reaches the cap. The function could be altered that it starts out almost linear and then converges infinitely to a soft cap which is a bit lower than the current hard cap. Really looking forward to this change!

What is this softcap hardcap?!?!

Hardcap= something like the lootsystem we have atm. Itemfind and -quality only work till 400%, everything over doesnt do anything. Softcap= till u reach a certain amount of Itemfind and -quality everything goes normal, but after a certain value every percent u get have less impact. for example: If u have a softcap at 200%, its linear increasment till 200%, but after every percent over 200% only gives 0,8% effect. If the next softcap would be at 400% u only get 0,6% effect per 1% over 400% and so on. So u still have an effect for every Itemfind and -quality point, but it get less and less.

Acolyte is NOT that op per second imo The fact that there is only one rare darkness tower makes him seem op (tried playing darkness solo? Really strong atm) Don't get me wrong he is very good and could need slight adjustments but I think if more rare darkness towers are added he won't stand out too much Shadow nerf is easy, just reduce the challenge adaption my shadows feed on challenges primarily since they just don't die in an instant, nerf that and everything should be ok Jilly range too high and proc chance is too high in late (impatient & pants) think she should be an uncommon card at least (instakill too strong mechanic for common card) Novice is really bad (impact is lower than baby rabbit) spider slow kinda low (or stuns are too strong?) Still not using wolves, why? Simple. No utility. You need like 10 high lvl wolves for some effect which doesn't even have that much of an impact and only effects one tower, maybe new passive like the alpha wolf(highest lvl or unique card) grants part of its stats (10%+0.2%/lvl) to all other wolfs, each wolf shares part of experience gained to alpha (dark forge style), if unique card route: normal wolves gain "rend" ability: increase dmg taken by 1% staking up to 1/lvl, if target is killed by a wolf (alpha or normal) add a random steak in the inventory of the wolf Muli just stun bot who is kinda worse than Jilly... And she is common Maybe an alert for replacing unique towers (ruined a game by accidently replacing Manitou with Acolyte because it was next to the tower I was using for goblin farm) maybe display the tower name in the alert Problem with scaling could be fixed this way : Rebalance potions by increasing base value and nursing lvl scaling (lower max effect) so potions help in early-mid and fall off late compared to now (would make power curve more in line with diff scaling) More if I have more time to think/play/notice

Thanks for your input @DerpMinh! Agree with you on the Acolyte. After the remaining two rare darkness towers are added AND with an adjusted loot function AND a slightly decreased loot on the treasure goblins he spawns it will rebalance. Added your input to my ticket for nerfing Shadow. Also created a new ticket to at least consider a slight nerf of Miss Jilly. Created a new ticket about possible Wolf enhancement with your input, too. And a BIG +1 for the unique/legendary tower alerts. I will add an alert for the two scenarios: - Unique tower is replaced by another tower - Unique tower is built I will keep the potion option in mind, but my hope atm that a rebalanced loot probability could work on its own (Don't want to change too many factors/parameters at once :-)).

Wolf and Scarecrow needs to be reworked. I think Derpminhs idea on wolf is good. Scarecrows ability for me is not really working out. He just aint that appealing as a carry or even to any tile on the map. After sending out all his crows he is just normally attacking the rest which is not really helpful when your making the most of the impatience set and during bonus rounds when creeps just keeps on coming and coming unabling you enough time to land crows. Why not make his ability like every 8sec or so, he sends out a crow to attack his target and have 1 sec less on its cooldown maybe like at levels 33, 66 and 99 and an additional -0.1sec for every 100% attack speed he has. For example at level 99 instead of every 8sec it becomes every 5 seconds he sends out a crow to attack his target plus another -1sec if he has 1000%attack speed. If this should happen, a little nerf on its attack I think would rebalance him as not to make him OP.

Hmmm I actually like Scarecrow a lot to play with. I always try to build up two carries, one for mass and the other for boss/single targets. And for boss/sinle target Scarecrow does a fantastic job :-D

personally the accolyt isnt that OP once more Darkness yellows get implemented decreasing the chance for him to be generated lowering the number u get even more (since there is only 1 darkness tower in game currently opposed to the 3+ for other elements)

@Andy ..yeah... I do that too.. hahaha.., but i usually go for Poisonous frog, Solora or Bear... maybe i could reconsider Scarecrow now that you mentioned it.. hahaha..

Okay, so with a little further testing it does seem that the Acolyte of Greed isn't that great. The only reason it seems good is the lack of rare towers. So maybe something as small as even adding another rare tower could clear it up, preferably a darkness one because all darkness runs are hilariously overpowered.

The lack of rare towers makes his effect OP. When more get added he won't be so bad but in the current state of the game he needs a nerf.

andy before nerfing the acolyte could we see what its like with the other two rares in for darkness?

Erm... Im still new to this game but is it possible to have a card that specifically target Air unit? Cause so far air unit is the most annoying one (especially those with fast and armor) and they always take the shortest path. Something like: Bird Hunter (because air unit is usually bird...) Effect: Trophy Bird Hunter collects bird head as trophy, causes trauma to his enemy +0.6 damage add and 1 base damage per kill Take cover Bird hunter hide within his ally, conceal himself from his enemy +0.5% crit chance and 1% crit damage per each tower level one range around him

Hi there, the only option right now for true anti-air is Mr. Iron, but he needs to construct a few longbows in his armor before he's ready for it. And thanks for sharing your idea! To help us consider Bird Hunter for one of the future releases, please copy his description into the card ideas subforum. Cheers!

Many luck based towers and items are quite powerful(Shadow and Holgar, Withered set on mr iron, too lesser extent even Jilly, Knusperhexe and Abyss king), while Scarface is a mediocre at best. Instead of rebalancing individual towers/items I would suggest changing how luck works -instead of linear scaling make it diminishing returns. Than you can even remove the hard cap on trigger chance to help Scarface.

First off, and I see this on just about every forum on every game every where. Nerf this nerf that, while I agree that sometimes things are blatantly off balance in some games, but I don't think that is the case here. Play the game the way the designer created it, learn the mechanics. There isn't some grand prize at the end like we win the internet. I started playin this TD quite some time ago, and let me tell you, I sucked at it! lol. but with each game learned from my mistakes, what cards worked well with each other what to place where, be patient and learn. Kingdom Rush, Fieldrunners, and a host of other td games are fairly linear, meaning play this to get a star, to get to a new level, where look, you get another star. Once your upgrades are complete, basically game over. This here, no two games are ever the same, depending on drops, luck, and skill will make or break how far you get. It's great to see a dev open to suggestions, and I'm sure we all have a few, but just because the game isn't the way you want it, please ease up on the "just because i cant do it means somethings wrong" scenario. I can tell there has been a lot of love put into this game, and the balance seems right. Just my two cents from the peanut gallery O^O Good luck all!!!!!

I really don't think most of the complaints here are because we cant do this or that. There are some real issues right now with the balance of the game, mainly in my opinion with the late game. Loot overflow and tower scaling makes the last 100-400 levels (depending on game length you chose) feel like you have god mode applied. There is no challenge. Part of the issue with this is due somewhat to items but mostly to tower scaling and/or enemies not scaling enough at later levels. Your main carry tower far surpasses any difficulty of enemies after a certain point in the game and it shouldn't be that way. The whole game, especially on hard, should be a challenge where you could lose at any point. For me its just about lvl 100 where it gets too easy, where the only challenging enemy to kill is the challenge boss itself (and i usually don't fail to kill any of them after level 100). When more enemy stat modifiers get added I'm sure this will help but until then we are still working to further balance the game. There's a lot of merit in some of the things that various users have brought up in this topic.

Nice post Brandon. I would tend to agree with you...at some point, varies literally from game to game depending on the RNG Gods, it seems you plow through waves. Had many a game though that started of well then went to shit at some point and still can lose, lol. Guess it all depends on each ones view on what the game is. Getting to the bonus round and length of survival is what I strive for and to me it seems part of the loot drop readies you for that, just my opinion is all. Game breakers to me are things of a nature where due to mechanics of a game you can create an infinite loop of ever increasing stats or difficulty,(when Mr. Iron could eat set items) to which I have yet to find here that wasn't fixxed in a timely fashion. RNG is RNG....sometimes it works for you, sometimes it doesn't. After reading my previous post, it came across as something as a whine itself, lol...was just coming home from work in which the day was filled with people with the above affliction, lol. I agree if there is some game breaking bug or flaw, that should be addressed, I had just seen more than enough of "it's broke" kinda posts and set me off :) hahah Laters

Mhm, i did not read all of this topic, but there are a few things that needs balancing i think... First off: Shadow. Either way fix his adapt ability (give later mobs about level 200+ or such, a slight resistance against it, or lower the chance.) or just cap it at, whatever 5000% or 10000%. The 60.000% are just a bit over the top... Money to Dmg ratio of the Sat is a bit too high for late progress... on the other hand he eats through it in 10 min or so. Maybe change base dmg increase to damage bonus (like items) increase? About luck abilitys: Same goes for Knux/Abyss and jilly (maybe increase it a tiny bit at start and mor resistance to later waves), which can stack/insta kill. Droprates are unstable, but personally i like it =) sometimes no matter what you do, you are doomed ;D Somehow balance the mid/late game to the flood of items/pots. Well i think the "complaints" if you want to call them, are fine. Love the game =) but i try to avoid Shadow/Sat which makes gettin really high scores a bit harder ^^ Especially if holger refuses to produce potions XD

I looked thorugh items (dont have all yet) and tower abilitys a bit. Maybe you should think about putting some kind of caps (be it a hard or soft) on Abilitys which stack endless. Shadows adaption and that sword +1%dmg/kill. I think at least on the 500 round games they are a bit over the top. Or just cut the "gain" off as soon as the bonus round starts? (So they wont get more power over the ongoing time) That should at least get rid of some of the insanely high times in the rankings =) Having a legendary item which increases the by one 1%dmg per kill (how many kills does the carry make avarage from wave 150-500? 350 waves with avarage of 5kills/wave... thats 1750% bonus dmg, without pots etc). That kind of dmg bonus is ridiculus (did i spell it right?) compared to other items out there. Same goes for Sat dmg gain from money and Shadow inidifinite dmg bonus. I would like to see somethin like this for starters: Disable equip changes/pots drinking and building as soon as the first bonus wave starts and of course fix the towerstats then. No more gaining stacks, dropping pots from holgar etc. And then wait to see what happens on the ladder and if it is enough to balance it a bit more for the bonus times. *Edit: The item flood for me starts normally on around 60-70 when i hit the 200%dropchance mark. If you go with holger it might be around 30-50, where the game starts to go like "skip" "skip!" "damn i cant skip any faster ;("

I suggest capping shadows adaptation bonus damage % to around 1500-2500%. I think this will put him on the same level as the other carries.

Darkness isn't op just unbalanced as heck atm ppl complain bout shadow Jill Carey's but what else do we have our purple yellow are all support add 1 to yellow add acoylate goes to 50 or 33 percent as good late game my forge becomes my goblin challage carry since shadow does nil lol evil monkey and bear can be abused worse then shadow since they got built in bonuses stun and splash Hogarth is a great carry that boosts a second carry by rings add in natures early LvL by gansha and +2 multi and a pure nature a lot easier the pure dark add in that 5-6 beavers with yellow boots stun lock bosses ironman would be insane if more items had crit damage only wolf cloak comes to mind

Well, due to its unbalancedness it is OP ;D Like you said, as soon as we will have 1-2 Yellow towers more on Darkness, the Acolyte isnt op anymore. Still shadow is OP with infinite stacks. Has to be capped in some way i think, same to that +dmg/kill sword. Edit: Maybe cap it somethin like (wavelevel+25)*7,5. So they still get stronger in the bonus rounds but its not THAT op. Another problem i see are the DOT towers. It seems to me, as if the Damage over Time towers are rather useless. I still search for a viable Solara build.(you know, that "new" Darkness tower...) Tried to go for Nature (Frog) and Darkness (Solara) build as carrys. The first lets say 60-70 rounds are easy (besides speed waves). But after it? Even with loads of pots and stuff, they just dont work out. Replacing my Soalra with a Dandelion worked out well... I see two possible fixes here: Better Targeting System. Why should solara hit a 5% life creep (which is still burning for 7 secs) instead the 100% creep (not burning) 2 tiles away? Or make the DOT time scale with AS and decrease the dmg gain. So your dot runs in like 2 Secs later on instead of 8 seconds. Even with MR it doesnt pay out at all... Have to try solara with a full demon sword... Nice increase on base dmg. Might change things then. But i still think it wont be viable..

After playing a game with only metro (the pain T_T). I've come to suggest to following buffs: Increase Electric Chairs range to 2. (I suppose this is supposed to be a combat tower?, currently a Pocket Thief / Hitman does far more damage in the duration of a round simply due to the Chair just sitting their doing nothing 90% of the round due to lack of range). -Balance the damage if necessary but it really needs a range upgrade. Give Hitman, either a temporary -armor effect on target (perhaps -0.5 armor for each unit it's killed for 3 seconds), or a temporary damage boost taken on the target ("target takes 10% more damage taken for 3 seconds" or "critical hits with Hitman has a 50% chance to increase damage taken by 50% of 'Hitmans level' for 3 seconds") -It's currently a subpar tower even compared to other common towers, it's 6 range isn't effective enough to deserve a 5s attack speed, either rebalance the damage/second or give it a useful buff which makes people still want to have them around after round 20. Give Black Widow a attack range of 3, even if she's got good 'dps' her lack of range makes her a very non-legendary legendary tower in terms of combat effectiveness, I've more or less never seen anyone use her as a combat tower, only for her buff. Currently Metro lacks any real combat towers except for the Scarface (thats not legendary), and even out of the Legendary ones, Blofeld is late game (require a lot of money before costing more then in gains), Muli is Nature reliant (which is 'fine' but he requires at least 2 Huli's before being useful -adds 4k to cost, while Huli is very good as soon as being built -and cheap) and the Black Widow lacks the range to be a true combat tower (she also has a primary non combat-ability, and anyway why is her attack range 2 while her ability range is 3 ?). These are all buffs which I really think Metro deserves to be able to even try to stand against Darkness / Nature as a balanced element, Metro feels far to gimmicky atm. The only other towerss I feel that needs a buff (non Metro) is: Bear Hunter: I really think he deserves either a crit multiplier on his traps or at least a crit rate/damage bonus. His 1 range doesn't hinder him as badly as many other towers due to his traps, but with -70% damge to air and his atrocious attack speed, he really needs some more love to measure up. Solara: like Ontrose said her targetting is half the issue, the other issue is that the splash just isn't good enough. I would rather she her having stats like this: 30% splash+0.7% per level and 200% fire damage over 2s + 4% / level, then what she currently has. Her attack speed/range makes her a bit weak in the early game (Dandelion / Baby Rabbit is stronger), and due to her splash damage/range when she's finally high level most single target towers do better at mass waves then her, except for champion waves where she does really well due to them being so close, but at most other times she's just not good enough).

Well i will follow your List through and make a statement for each. #1 Electtric Chair: The thing with electric chair is, that he lacks base dmg later on i think. The point him is, he attacks multiple creeps. Build it close to spawn and he will keep shooting and the after the initial hits it will always hit the the first spawned enemys on the map. But in the long run he misses the decent amount of dmg even with all pots. My suggestion: Let it probably get more hits (13,36,50 [level 1+12 +13 +14 +15 16 +17]) and a slight buff on the base dmg. Or a 0 Splash (Only the Tile it hits on). Hitman: well dont really like this tower. But i think he just needs his minimal dmg increased a bit, so his dmg will be more stable. Bearhunter: Cant really talk about this tower either. Due to the fact he leaks the AA dmg... Black Widow: Nothing to add here.

i know there are some plans to buff the novice wizard, but i dont know in what way? yes a small time warp % chance per level would be nice but i also thought that it could get a % reduction in backfire spells per level? so a level 99 wizard would have smaller chance to backfire spells than a lvl 1 peace //

Mhm i think the Warp times are just too high. Maybe 1.5 back and 1sec to to warp it further ahead... or instead make it Tiles instead of seconds? One of the problems is on medium range carrys it swaps out of hitting range and thus losing the dmg on the boss. ^^