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The Ripper compared to Shadow

I thought The Ripper would outperform Shadow in the long run, but that seems to be impossible before you go out of steam. My Shadow has hit his limit at 10k% adapt and The Ripper is still growing, but is growing slowly. I'm at the 30k second bonus round (still haven't lost) Without equipment my Shadow has 29,5M dmg. With times 100 (adapt), he got 2,950M. The Ripper currently have 208M dmg with 90,000 Thirsts. (Without equipment) Since Shadow is my main he has gotten more potions of course, but 208M compared to 2,950M is insane after 30k seconds. Is there anyone whos good at math here who could calculate how long it would actually take for The Ripper to outperform Shadow? Since my Shadow has hit his limit and The Ripper is growing limitless. I think I will probably lose before The Ripper outperform my Shadow. To calculate I think you need this(not sure) Currently: 30K second bonus round (still alive) Currently: 90,000 Thirsts, I get around +20 Thirst every 5 second.( 4 Thirst per second) Currently: The Ripper 208M dmg (could say 200M) So how many seconds would it take for him to reach 2,950M dmg? I would add the seconds it would take with my current 30K seconds, to see how far I had to go for him to beat Shadow. It's probably over 100K seconds (makes The Ripper mostly useless compared to Shadow) I think he started at 10M dmg at the start of the bonus round, while shadow started at 7M (without adapt) They both gained dmg from Abyss of course. Dying to know! Sorry for long post!

In the https://mazebert.com/forums/topic/im-baaack/ thread Kami and Romeo have been discussing this and this is somewhat the most important info by @Kami he has some calculations there aswell if you want to read more thats why i linked it aswell =) @Kami:_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ I cant See ripper near shadow on any case his bonus is too little to matter. Later on he should more or less 1 hit kill and he stacks additively with abyss while shadow gives you a nice 100x multiplier on DMG. Building critdmg up is just so insignificant when abyss gives you 30k bonus for ripper to be as good as shadow he would need 6million Stacks Meaning he needs 200 procs for every proc on abys to compete woth shadow K believe what you want the numbers show that rippers bonus is not worth mentioning when abyss is getting good procs. 1 abyss proc is worth 200 ripper procs so the gain of it is non existent. Higher base DMG is only worth it if you have a good attack speed aswell and even than ,if you crunch the numbers shadow out classes him by factors larger than 10. That’s just the math behind it: Abyss grows much faster than ripper so ripper doesn’t matter as they improve the same stats. That means, no matter how many procs ripper gets his bonus will be much lower than the bonus of abyss. ___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ hope that gives you the answer you where looking for =) piz // mr

I tryed Ripper just at easy games several times before I got Lord roderic, but its really hard to make him viable. Next game i will make some testing how far he can go on hard 500. I think what he needs is: 1. at least 100% critchance 2. attack delay has to be near min (0.03) as soon as possible (than he gets +1.45% dmg/critdmg per sec) but that takes +10k% 3. lvl99 for max support from the potions In range of a mr iron and a load of speed potions this is not a big deal but I don't have space for him in range of mr iron. Another issue is the range of the ripper. He needs a position where he can hit continously without any breaks or as less as possible. So maybe tile #1 in my setup.
Currently: 90,000 Thirsts, I get around +20 Thirst every 5 second.( 4 Thirst per second)
That means he is around 0.25 attack delay - too slow. At 0.05 attack delay the ripper will gain 1% DMG/critdmg per second (infight) which he needs at least to get strong fast enough. Thats my theory of making him viable (as a sub carry for boss killing late BR) but havent got real experience so far. Next game will show it... <<-- need at least mjoelnir to test the setup with Ripper (actually blood deamon and skull of Darkness too :D ) PS: there is an older post about the comparison of ripper and shadow which might help if you haven't already read it...

Speed on him is stupidly slow for some reason, which really screws him. His actual base damage ends up being fantastic, and for me, I've had better runs on my dedicated Darkness deck with Ripper than I did with Shadow (Though I only just recently got the Blood Demon). The actual thirst amount could also probably use the smallest of boosts (Though not too much, as he can Proc forever). Also, if you don't have Lord Roderic, that will make a COLOSSAL difference. Not only for the Multicrit (Which helps everyone), but for the Crit Chance, which helps him build steam early on. The difference between Prince Lycan and Lord Roderic is between failing to get to the bonus round on a bad run, vs getting over 10,000 seconds on a bad run.

Thanks for the information! @MRDRR Thanks for the link, I'll check it out. @Noin ye, I guess my speed was to slow, might be because I focused Shadow as my main, thought The Ripper would automatically surpass him at some point and at that point I would switch main. That seems impossible tho if Shadow has a much higher gain from Abyss because Adapt multiply. @Romeo Agreed, his speed is to slow to play as fast as I could play Shadow and survive. His Speed should be increased to atleast 1,5 cooldown or gain 1 more range. 100% dmg at range 1, 40-50% dmg at 2 range.

@romeo Agreed, his speed is to slow to play as fast as I could play Shadow and survive. His Speed should be increased to atleast 1,5 cooldown or gain 1 more range. 100% dmg at range 1, 40-50% dmg at 2 range.
I like his range being one (He is a melee guy, after all). But the 1 range coupled with a 3 second delay (Even longer with Roderic) means he struggles to kill any grouped units early on, and can still have difficulty getting anywhere near minimum attack delay later on. One or the other would be totally understandable, and could be worked around. The combination is ridiculously limiting though.

I think the only way to make the ripper work is to make him stack faster than the abyss. That means insane attack speed but low damage. Not a situation that can easily exist. Also, since he only has 1 attack range, you'd need twisted wizards to hopefully keep the enemy walking by your ripper. I don't have much experience building these setups (I'm only a level 50 wizard), but maybe at round 100 you could create a setup where you could get hundreds of thirsts from a single challenge round. Again, I'm not sure this scenario could exist, because you'd need to have another carry tower farther back that does the real damage, but you'd want to be using speed potions on the ripper for thirsts.

I think the only way to make the ripper work is to make him stack faster than the abyss. That means insane attack speed but low damage. Not a situation that can easily exist. Also, since he only has 1 attack range, you’d need twisted wizards to hopefully keep the enemy walking by your ripper. I don’t have much experience building these setups (I’m only a level 50 wizard), but maybe at round 100 you could create a setup where you could get hundreds of thirsts from a single challenge round. Again, I’m not sure this scenario could exist, because you’d need to have another carry tower farther back that does the real damage, but you’d want to be using speed potions on the ripper for thirsts.
See, I disagree about giving him low attack, fast speed. We already have a Dark tower that operates that way - Shadow. He is already balanced in that he has just one range to use, unlike literally every other competitive carry in the game. The slow speed is an unnecessary second nerf. It's possible to get a decent amount of procs by spamming the daylights out of Magic Mushrooms, but the problem is that his base damage is so high he'll still kill anything that isn't a Boss or Challenge Boss in one hit. Even against them, you'll still only get a few strikes before he kills them too. And with his Speed being so obnoxiously slow, intentionally holding back his damage doesn't help too much, because eventually he'll just fail to kill them, which is even more damning to his longterm viability. All Ripper needs is a base-Speed boost. Maybe to around two seconds or so (Or wherever turns out to be competitive). Everything else about him - his risk ratio, his bonuses, his range, they can all stay as detriments. But the Speed MUST improve.